Paladin/Warlock/Bard/Fighter? - Tips & Tactics - Dungeons & Dragons Discussion - D&D Beyond Forums (2024)

Hey I am a new DnD player. I want to try an optimized build. I come up with an idea. But not sure if it will work good or not.

We are starting the campaign at Level 4

My rolled stats are:

STR: 17/CON 12/DEX 12/CHA 16/WIS 8/INT 10

Note: we are allowed to swap stats!!!

(Yes I know it is very mid)

I want to try paladin this campaign. But these stats make it really hard. Yet still I want to try.

My first initial build was variant human(polearm(glaive)+tunnel fighter(allowed)+relentless avenger combo+smite) 18 vengeance paladin 2 fighter (action surge and defence or great weapon fighting style) which is still very viable option. Other feats would probably be Res(CON) at 4, Sentinel, + CHA etc

Now the other build in my mind is to go 8 paladin,5 hexblade warlock, 5 whispering bard, 2 level fighter. Leveling is not in order. Also half elf.

The purpose is simple:

Swap str and cha

Take elven accuracy. Gain advantage by flanking, vow of enmity, hex curse etc.

Maintain polearm master+tunnel fighter+relentless avenger combo. This gives me a lot of AoO.

Then, divine smite+psychic blade+eldritch smite+extra attack+ pam bonus attack+ action surge then repeat.

crit change is something like %27 with advantage.(?) And with lots of AoO. Lots of hits with extra attack and action surge.

Is the build viable? Good or unnecessary?

I can go bardadin as well with 15 pally 5 whispering bard as well.

Thanks.

For a new player, I suggest not trying out an optimized build you got from the internet. (To be fair, I also think that's the best approach for an experienced player in most games.)

1. It's way more complicated to try to do when you're still learning the mechanics
2. It leads you to focus on the mechanics instead of the important (and more difficult part) -- the role-playing.
3. Re-emphasizing the role-playing thing. Figuring your characters motivations gets a lot harder when you're also trying to justify the subclassing choices that exist only because they give you more plusses.
4. Even if you can make the build work, it may leave you completely out of tune with the vibe at your table. Optimized combat builds are not normal in most games.

Also, not related to the above, aside from the not-amazingCon, that's a fine set of stats for a Paladin. If that's before the stat bumps for your species, just put the +2 into Con, and you're fine. If it's after, you're likely going to want to bump that con with your level ups. A standard array character is likely going to be either 17 15 13 12 10 8 or 16 16 13 12 10 8 after species bonuses. Your stats are very slightly better. (the 17 16 gets you slightly more benefit than having a 13 does.)

First thing to keep in mind is that chances are, your campaign will not last beyond level 12. Sure you might get lucky and the table sticks together for 2 years to play all the way to 20, but don't count on it. Second thing to keep in mind is that most tables play at most 3 sessions at level 20, the vast majority of your play time will be at lower levels, thirdly, by the time you get to level 20 you'll have amassed a lot of magic items that will significantly affect how you play your character. All together this means it is quite silly to plan out what your character will be at level 20 when you are starting at level 4.

In general I advise players to never plan beyond the next 5 levels of your character progression ahead of time because so many things can happen in and out of game that may change your mind about higher levels. In this case that means thinking about how your character will play for levels 4-9.

Paladin is a great class if you want to be optimized I'd suggest:

Either a classic Paladin:
STR: 17/CON 12/DEX 10/CHA 16/WIS 12/INT 8

Using Tasha's rules put your +2 species bonus into CHA and the +1 into STR, for 2x 18s - any species can work for this though personally I like ones with movement bonuses for melee-characters (e.g. centaur, or tabaxi) or Bugbear is great for maximizing DPR. Start with 6 levels of Paladin, for heavy armour proficiency, Extra Attack and Aura of Protection. Take PAM at 4th level. Then at level 7 you can consider MCing Bard or Fighter or stick with Paladin. Honestly just straight Paladin is a very very effective build.

Or play a Hexblade, and MC into Paladin later:

STR: 12/CON 16/DEX 12/CHA 17/WIS 10/INT 8

Using Tasha's Rules put your +2 into CHA and +1 into STR, then at 4th level take Elven Accuracy to max out your CHA. Wield a longsword (Hex weapon) + shield, with medium armour. Take 5 levels of Warlock for Extra Attack (Thirsting Blade), Eldritch Smite, and Improved Pact Weapon. Then swap to Paladin, once you hit 4-Paladin you can pick up PAM and swap to a polearm.

Thanks for the advice. But we believe we will play till 20 levels. So I rather plan ahead as well.

I want to have your opinions on going vengeane pally with PAM + tunnel fighter + Relentless Avenger combo. I will be able to make AoO without using my reaction and can move back with Relentless Avenger.

Do you have any ideas to optimize this combo? Because since UA is not official, I have never find someone talking about or optimizing this combo. Since my DM allowed it I want to build up on this.

Thanks.

If you want to optimize and make your DM miserable and regret allowing Tunnel Fighter or rage-quit then :

Species: Variant Human - grab Sentinel as your free feat, then go Vengeance Paladin - 7 taking Tunnel Fighter as your FS, PAM as your 4th level ASI. Then go 3-Fighter Battlemaster for Goading Attack. Pick up the Mobile feat at some point (either as Paladin-8 or Fighter-4). Now you have infinite AoO that also freeze the enemies and you can then move out of their reach. If something manages to get into melee with you, you can use Mobile to get out of their reach without taking AoO of your own, while also Goading them into attacking you. Use all remaining ASIs to boost your STR either via Fighter or Paladin it doesn't really matter.

Option 2:

Species: Variant Human - grab Warcaster as your free feat, take Vengeance Paladin-7 taking Tunnel Fighter as your FS, and PAM as your 4th level ASI, take 1 level of Sorcerer to pick up Absorb Elements, Shield and Booming Blade (and optionally Green Flame Blade). Now you have unlimited BB opportunity attacks and can move away forcing the enemy to take the bonus BB damage. This isn't as crippling as the Sentinel option, but deals much more damage and is practically immortal.

I'm not bothering to take these to level 20 (just put them together: Warcaster, Sentinel, PAM, Mobile, STR+2,STR+2, Fighter-8, Sorcerer-4, Paladin-8) b/c they are so OP they will ruin the game unless everyone else is using similarly broken builds.

Thanks again for taking time to reply.

I have few questions regarding Sentinel feat in this combo. Isn't the combo supposed to work better if you make an AoO to an enemy and retreat back 15 feet. Then, if they try to chase you you make another AoO because TF allows it. Then go back 15 feet more. Doesn't Sentinel makes this move useless? Of course the feat offers a very good defensive play but just asking.

During BB, do you mean when I get back 15 feet BB damages? Shouldn't the enemy willing moves 5 feet?

Quote from Killinghammer >>

Thanks again for taking time to reply.

I have few questions regarding Sentinel feat in this combo. Isn't the combo supposed to work better if you make an AoO to an enemy and retreat back 15 feet. Then, if they try to chase you you make another AoO because TF allows it. Then go back 15 feet more. Doesn't Sentinel makes this move useless? Of course the feat offers a very good defensive play but just asking.

During BB, do you mean when I get back 15 feet BB damages? Shouldn't the enemy willing moves 5 feet?

That "chase me" idea is very unlikely to work if the enemies are even a little bit intelligent,even a dog or rat won't run at someone, get stabbed then run at that person immediately again, instead they are more likely to turn around and attack someone else, which is not what you want. Adding Sentinel means you are almost guaranteed to cause them to lose an entire turn stuck standing still 15 ft away from you which is way better than getting one free hit and then them going after one of your squishy allies, potentially moving away from you so you can't even reach them on your turn to attack them proper - not ideal. This is why I added the Battlemaster for Goading Maneuver to try and encourage them to keep attacking you.

Booming Blade is a similar idea to Sentinel except instead of forcing them to stay still and waste their turn, forces them to trade taking additional damage for the opportunity to attack someone on their turn.

A key thing to remember when building around AoO is that you are relying on the enemies doing what you want them to do. But enemies in general aren't going to do whatis good for you, they will do what is good for them.